Tamino is hopping mad about Joe D’Aleo’s suggestions on WUWT that the Arctic has been this warm in the past, and that ice has melted in the past. The gradual education of Tamino is a worthy – though hopeless cause.
The current Greenland warming, while not yet quite matching the temperatures of 70 years ago …..
“Examination of several proxy records (e.g., sediment cores) of sea ice indicate ice-free or near ice-free summer conditions for at least some time during the period of 15,000 to 5,000 years ago”
CLEVELAND, Feb. 16 (A.A.P.) Dr. William S. Carlson, an Arctic expert, said to-night that the Polar icecaps were melting at an astonishing and unexplained rate and were threatening to swamp seaports by raising the ocean levels.
Leading Arctic expert from 1953
The glaciers of Norway and Alaska are only half the size they were 50 years age. The tempera - ture around Spitsbergen has so modified that the sailing time has lengthened from three to eight months of the year,”
Leading Arctic expert from 1952
Dr. Ahlman urged the establish- ment of an international agency to study conditions on a global basis. Temperatures had risen 10 degrees since 1900. The navigable season along Western Spitzbergen now last- ed eight months instead of three.
Leading Arctic expert from 1947
it was concluded that near Polar temperatures are on an average six degrees higher than those registered by Nansen 40 years ago. Ice measurements were on an average only 6½ feet against from 9¼ to 13 feet.
The Norwegian, Captain Wiktor Arnesen, who has just returned from the Arctic, clains to have discovered an island 12 miles in circumference near the Franz Joseph Island, in latitude 80.40. He says that the island previously was hidden by an iceberg between 70 and 80 feet high, which has melted, showing the exceptional nature of the recent thawing in the Arctic.
http://news.google.com/newspapers
http://news.google.com/newspapers
1959 USS Skate at the ice-free North Pole
1957
http://news.google.com/newspapers
http://news.google.com/newspapers
1952
http://news.google.com/newspapers
http://news.google.com/newspapers
What can you expect from a guy that uses the definition for AIRHEAD as the name for his web suite? OPENMIND!
What can you expect from a guy that was so confused about who he was he thought he was reverse sunglasses: Foster Grant= Grant Foster
Some people just can’t get that “unprecedented” means something hasn’t happened before. Ever.
Him the Wasklly Wabbit and Water Closet the Weasel are about equal from my experience.
I was warned at another site that you are using fake articles from fake newspapers to make your case on historical weather extremes and climate.
If this is so, then you have remarkable image processing skills. I suggest dropping your resume at the white house email. I hear they may have need for such skills over the next year or so.
Don’t forget my hacking skills, placing those articles on Australian and US government web sites.
ROFLMAO!
Here’s another one for you:
http://www.theclimatescam.se/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/SeaIceSvalbard1769.jpg
You’ve also been clever enough to fake registration of those domains as belonging to Australian and US Governments, when in reality, they’re yours.
It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if those moronic alarmists suggest that.
I thought you were using the way back machine……….
Unfortunately, when Al Gore created the internet he failed to forsee the effect it would have on the availability of information, which would eventually help to derail his next project, the preaching of CAGW.
-Scott
chris y says:
September 18, 2011 at 3:16 am
I suggest dropping your resume at the white house email.
LOL!!
Tamino is a moron. But, then that isn’t exceptional when it comes to rabid eco-activists.
What I don’t get is how come they decided to invest so much in the arctic ice thing? One way or the other, they lose. If it melts, and we all don’t drown and the temps remain stable……. we’ll mock them to obscurity. If ice starts to gain and rebounds, we’ll laugh at their foolishness. If the ice remains stable for the next 4-5 years they’ll still become disregarded as certifiable. lol, albedo!!! That’s why every year, right after the minimum, the arctic ocean starts to boil.
It can’t get through to people like him. He can’t grasp that when he decides a paper or study is the “right one”, the rest of the stuff doesn’t just dissappear. They truly think that once they find a paper they like, it is the only paper that matters anymore.
They also think that proper science involves, trying every possible variation of methods in the statistical textbook until you find the one that provides the right answer, then publish.
They can not discard failed theories because it might become necessary to claim that one describes the current situation at any future date. Same with outliers from model runs. See we have a model that shows that is caused by AGW!
It is more likely that Tamino is frustrated by his own short comings than anything else.
Not unrelated and an interesting story.
In Greenland between 1942 and 1992 268 feet of ice had accumulated on top of GLACIER GIRL that was part of “The Lost Squadron” of P-38s.
“It turned out to be no easy task, as the planes had been buried under 25 stories of ice and drifted over a mile from their original location”
http://p38assn.org/glacier-girl.htm
There was lots of ice on the top of that squadron; but that doesn’t mean is more ice on Greenland. Scientists are inventing new lies, to cover up the old ones = no time for real science. Lets visit the truth; will be very useful for every Skeptic. When you know how the things function there – you will know what is truth or wrong; what part of the story is wrong.
Arctic ocean and Antarctic continent have different influences for the amount of ice; but Greenland and Antarctic have same faith: on those two landmasses, the ice is melted from below; by the thermal heat = need replenishing every season. Every scientist going to those places disregards the reality, because of obsession to fabricate evidences related to the phony GLOBAL warming = to get another grant. They see that is almost same amount of ice every year. B] they see that is no rainfall / snowfall = the ice must be 60 000y old. Wrong!!! Minimum of 1m-2m a year ice is melted from below, by the thermal heat. C] similar amount is created on the surface, by freeze-drying the moisture from the air. Same as your old fridge accumulates ice; with zero snowfall in the kitchen. Therefore: there is no old ice on those two landmasses. If people know the truth, Warmist wouldn’t spend big millions on researching the ‘’old CO2 trapped in the ice’’. The ice they think / state that is 10000y old, is only 200y old.
Those planes on Greenland have being covered by lots of ice; but similar amount of ice was lost on the bottom, on that same place. B] similar case when Warmist point that Antarctic is losing ice. Then Skeptics point on the other side on the continent the ice is increasing – increase the noise that planet is getting colder. The truth: because white ice is full of air = perfect insulator. Protects the thermal heat from the unlimited coldness from the air = that heat is eating the ice from below, summer and winter. On the Latin American side of Antarctic in El Nino gets more ice – on Australian side not enough to compensate for the melted = Warmist point there and state that is warmer planet = ice melts. Wrong! Then in La Nina more moist air arrives on that side = Skeptics make noise that is getting colder planet. Wrong! For amount of ice on the polar caps TEMPERATURE IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT!
Those places have enough coldness, to build another 7km thick ice in one season; only if enough moisture for ice is available. If you want to know how the things function in the sea, polar caps, desert, rainforest and on the top of the mountains and much more: http://globalwarmingdenier.wordpress.com Then if you are interested in the truth, I will send you a copy of my book.
Scott @ 4.08,
Al Gore may have underestimated the power of the Internet to disseminate information but our illustrious socialist government here in Oz are on the case. The Greens have realised that certain bloggers have successfully derailed the AGW scam and have called for an enquiry into the new media. The Labor government have enthusiastically agreed but the enquiry will focus on those websites which do not support the government line. I never thought such a day would come in this very open society but then what can one expect from the leftists? Their lust for power is greater than their love of democracy. They will be defeated but what damage they will cause.
Hayek’s ‘The Road to Serfdom’ in Five Minutes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkz9AQhQFNY&feature=related
Great stuff Steve. I’ve been poking around in the New York Times 1923 – 1986 archive and find articles like this one from 1962, which states that “the bomb” had made the weather worse. In 1962. Before CO2 cultism. (As an addenda, my dear grandmother – may she rest in peace – share this belief and stated it often into the 1970′s).
But Somebody Does Something About It; The weather, that is: many of man’s activities affect it, but often without improving it. About The Weather
By GEORGE H.T. KIMBLE
July 08, 1962,
Section The New York Times Magazine, Page 146, Column , words
SOLSBERRY, Ind. IF there is one thing the farmers who live around me are agreed upon, it is that the weather is not what it used to be: it’s worse. The summers, they will tell you, are stormier; the autumns wetter; the winters longer; the springs later. If there is another thing most of them are agreed upon, it is the reason for these presumed changes: “The bombs are what done it.”
Excellent thread Steve. One-Stop Shop for all things Arctic. I predict that no trolls will show up here. Nor will the climate ‘scientists’ like Julienne.
Agreed.
Foster Grant … Empty Mind.
Guys, it’s Tamino, what do you expect? Best thing for us, and for his sake too, is to ignore Tamino, everybody else does
Another abstract from the NY Times, February 1969:
Expert Says Arctic Ocean Will Soon Be an Open Sea; Catastrophic Shifts in Climate Feared if Change Occurs Other Specialists See No Thinning of Polar Ice Cap
By WALTER SULLIVAN
February 20, 1969,
Page 20, Column , words
Col. Bernt Balchen, polar explorer and flier, is circulating a paper among polar specialists proposing that the Arctic pack ice is thinning and that the ocean at the North Pole may become an open sea within a decade or two.
More NY Times, 1947:
Warming Arctic Climate Melting Glaciers Faster, Raising Ocean Level, Scientist Says
By GLADWIN HILL
Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES
May 30, 1947,
Page 23, Column , words
LOS ANGELES, May 29 — A mysterious warming of the climate is slowly manifesting itself in the Arctic, engendering a “serious international problem,” Dr. Hans Ahlmann, noted Swedish geophysicist, said today.
I tried leaving a little poem for Tamino, but apparently he is not into the arts.
Ice Melts
-by Gator
Ice melts.
Big deal.
The End.
Guess it’s not a literary page.
…..LOL
RIGHT!!!
Even back in the early 20th century, greedy,white capitalist males like Rockefeller and Ford were raping the planet, plundering the masses and putting demonic CO2 into the atmosphere. Gaia was just reacting to their exploitation. We need to reduce CO2 to pre-industrial revolution levels. If we don’t, us evil humans will certainly be zapped by aliens!
That explains why Russians built sea ports around the Arctic they could only keep open and use with icebreakers…….
……50 years before icebreakers were invented
Steve,
This compilation, along with all the other old news articles that you have used previously but that don’t appear here, is worthy of a book. It’s also worthy of an extended campaign ad for any of the GOP candidates that have debunked global warming.
Beyond that it’s also worthy of at least an hour long documentary on Fox News. (CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, ABC, etc, of course would never touch it because it doesn’t fit with their man made global warming and “green” agenda.) I know you get a lot of linked traffic from Climate Depot and other anti AGW sites, but this material needs to reach an even wider audience. The vast proliferation of actual news reports that you have compiled that show past Arctic warming and other extreme weather events is perhaps more compelling to the average person than any sort of scientific or otherwise technical arguments could be. The majority of the population, even those college educated, just have no idea of past weather/climate history. They’ve bought into the gross exaggerations and outright lies put out by Gore (and many others) and the state run media about how unprecedented today’s weather events are.
I encourage you to look for some sort of collaboration to ensure that your old news stories get a much, much wider audience than what you have here.
Thanks and keep up the good work.
Thank you. I have been exploring avenues to spread the news.
Tamino – please respond to this.
They are all just getting frustrated because they “know” AGW is real and all this contrary data is not the “real” signal.
I thought I’d “bite the bullet” and take a quick troll through”Open Mind”, since I’ve avoided any other than accidental visits in the past. What I’ve found is that in common with many”warmist” sites, the content is the exact reverse of what the site name implies. Tamino displays evidence of a remarkably closed mind. He also shows a strong tendency to base his arguments on pre-conceived notions rather than first checking whether those notions are sound.
In one post, he admits several times that he doesn’t really know about a number of factors, but that doesn’t stop him disagreeing with the authors of the paper under discussion on several connected points. Admitting to arguing from a position of ignorance should alert his readers to the weakness of those arguments, but I see no sign of related criticism or correction of such bluster in the comments. Try this for a sample:
http://tamino.wordpress.com/2011/09/04/odd-introduction-to-a-new-paper/
Note that “my impression” is the basis for the argument. In this and the other posts I’ve read, I find his arguments “entirely unconvincing”.
There is another factor influencing the increase of temperature for a particular year. If is an important event, or before election = the temperature goes up. 98 was the warmest in last 50years; because was just after Kyoto Conference – to scare the hell out of you, BOO!!! (psychology is a science)
Then 99 and following years become cooler, exclusively because: the more prudent in IPCC realised that; is going to be much longer to brainwash 51% of the western society. I.e. if they increase by that much, the planet will get warmer by 50degrees; people might notice…
These events cannot be replicated by the Consensus Models, and therefore must be discarded.
Everything is unprecendented now.
The question of the Century:
If the USS Skate was at the waterless North Pole in 1959, Where did the ancient Northern Ice Core samples come from?
Yeah, Ice melts, Water refreezes, TAKING ICE SAMPLES FROM ARCTIC OR ANTARCTIC IS NOT LIKE A ROCK SAMPLE!
Here is an experiment for the feeble-minded:
1. Half-Fill an ice try with water and freeze it at 22deg
2. At perfectly equal intervals, keeping a perfectly steady temp, spray some colored water from a bottle over the ice. Change colors each time.
3. Remove to room temperature (109 degrees according to Al Gore) until you see melting.
4. Refreeze and take a core sample from each cube.
Sounds ASININE doesn’t it? That’s because it IS. Every single cube will be drastically different, the samples are useless. I did this stupid experiment for my 7th grade Science Project. It’s NOT ROCKET SCIENCE! The Globe is going into serious debt over an argument that 12yr old kids know to be false.
Funny how alarmists have adopted a code of silence on Antarctica because it doesn’t fit their template!
Great collection. Is it the blogging equivalent of starting to SHOUT by making the images and headlines bigger as we scroll down?
Tamino makes me want to SHOUT too.
Maybee this is of interest ob this topic?
http://acsys.npolar.no/ahica/intro.htm
“The ACSYS Historical Ice Chart Archive presents historical sea-ice observations in the Arctic region between 30ºW and 70ºE in the form of digitized maps, stored as shape files. The earliest chart dates from 1553, and the most recent from December 2002. More recent charts are available electronically from the Norwegian Meteorological Institute (www.met.no).
Vessels sailing to the Arctic to explore or to hunt whales and seals made early sea-ice observations. Over the centuries, technological advances and commercial opportunities in the Arctic led to more frequent and regular sea-ice observations, with associated increasing accuracy. As sailing ships gave way to steam powered vessels, and with the advent of aircraft and satellites, regular mapping of sea ice conditions became an organized activity. From 1967 onwards, hand drawn weekly charts were produced, showing not only an ice edge, but also concentrations of sea ice within the ice pack. Since July 1997, improved technology allowed daily production of digital sea ice maps on workdays.”
JiNova, a small suggestion: if you make an article: how to improve the climate. The climate is not perfect now. Warmist are constantly pointing about floods and droughts. Well, build dams to save extra storm-water for droughts and for hydro-electricity. We need better climate; they say that human is powerful enough to deteriorate the climate; well, human is powerful enough to improve the climate also. What do we want?! We want climate change for better!!! When do we want?! NOW!!! That will increase Valium sale to the leading Warmist; good for the economy. (for them the word ”improving” is not in their vocabulary -for improving needs real work, not only lies) WHAT DO WE WANT? CLIMATE CHANGE!!! WHEN DO WE WANT IT?! NOW!!!
As a reverse psychology. Demand climate change, Warmist are against dams. That will get everybody’s attention. Also, WARMIST PROBLEM IS NOT TO PREVENT GLOBAL WARMING; BUT TO PRODUCE ONE. CO2 is increasing beyond anybody’s expectation – GLOBAL warming is not happening – billions squandered…
Your picture of the Skate 1959 “1959 USS Skate at the ice-free North Pole” is nothing but a hoax:
If you would taken the time to read the LIFE-Article
http://books.google.de/books?id=YEgEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA130&ots=Q3SNvUY9j0&dq=skate%201959%20arctic%20journeys&pg=PA130#v=onepage&q&f=true
you would realize that this picture was taken definitely some distance from the north pole.
You could know it; but you are not interested in. So What.
But relay funny was
LOLZ says
“the WATERless North Pole in 1959″.
Real-scinece?!?! ROTFL
What the “open water” picture of the Skate proves is that DURING THE DEAD OF WINTER in 1959 there was OPEN WATER in the Arctic.
We will have to obtain logs and data, (probably declasified now) to find out the complete extant of this open water…if known. We DO know that the US Navy had a POLICY of making excusions to the pole from the Skate onward, to make it clear to the Soviets that we “rulled the arctic”. At some time a compilation of these observations might extend the “reliable satellite measurements” back another 20 years. Prior to that EVERYTHING is “anecdotal”, no “denier” (as myself) would deny that.
The photo of the USS Skate used here is a denialsphere creation myth. Actual photos of the event can be found here; taken from Surface at the Pole: the extraordinary voyages of the USS Skate, Commander James Calvert, 1961.
As Patrick Lockerby points out: In his book “Surface at the Pole”, Commander James Calvert, USN remarked of the 5th polyna found in 1959:
Lockerby continues: That ‘open water’ was found in March 1959, about 100 miles from the New Siberian Islands, a few days after surfacing at the pole. Previously, having found no open water, the USS Skate had surfaced at the pole through a frozen lead on March 17th. The ice was so thick that it did not obstruct the conning tower with fragments as previous thinner ice had done. Not only was the ice thick, but it was hummocked to a height estimated at 18 feet, “… the tallest we had yet seen in the Arctic.”
One of the easiest things to spot is the actual photos are taken by the light of handheld flares; your photo appears to be in daylight. On March 17, 1959 the sun had not risen yet at the North Pole – that wouldn’t happen for another 4 days. I think it’s time you did a new post on the USS Skate and used the correct photos and issued a retraction for misleading your readers.
Okay genius Kevin, the actual surface photo shown is not at the pole. However, as Max pointed out above, IT’S IN THE DEAD OF WINTER AND IT’S AN ICE FREE AREA IN THE ARCTIC!!!
And, global warmist pinhead, there are NUMEROUS stories on this site from scientists and sailors back 50 to 100+ years ago talking about receding ice, shrinking glaciers, temperature increases in widespread areas the arctic of 5+ degrees, etc. When you and the rest of your lying warmist scumbags retract all of your mountains of B.S., then perhaps it will be appropriate to clarify that the picture was actually some distance from the pole, although STILL IN THE DEAD OF WINTER!!!
The photo is probably from August, 1958. Or so says the US Navy.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08578.htm
IN THE DEAD OF SUMMER!
NOT AT THE NORTH POLE!
PINHEAD!
Have a nice day.
Chris Brainless and Clueless is the very reason I come here. He’s heard these myths so many times he just believes them without thinking. Even when someone gives him a link to the actual facts (MKFBoulder above) he can’t be bothered to check it out.
I really am trying to understand the mentality, the thought process that produces the reaction you see in his bold riposte. He’s agitated, angry and I haven’t a clue why. Isn’t truth what we’re all looking for? I guess maybe that’s the assumption that has led me astray; projecting my search for the truth onto others.
We’re always told to learn from our mistakes. Online that means developing a filter that tells you who to trust. If you’re getting information from people that are often wrong, then you’re getting your information from the wrong sources. I’ve found the Skate photo here with the same caption in at least 4 or 5 different posts. Even when it was pointed out that the photo’s date, year, and/or location had to be in error, did anyone follow up by looking at the best available source material? No. And so the myth persists. Paul Krugman calls them ‘zombie lies’ – no matter how many times they’re refuted they just won’t die.
Try reading the actual story from the link provided by another of your warmists buddies above, dumbass. Check out the headline that includes “surfacings in arctic WINTER icepack”. The read the story that gives dates and details.
http://books.google.de/books?id=YEgEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA130&ots=Q3SNvUY9j0&dq=skate%201959%20arctic%20journeys&pg=PA130#v=onepage&q&f=true
The photo you refer to is clearly shown on page 135, and listed as one of 10 surfacings. The story also mentions the sunlight they saw. You do know that there is daylight prior to actual sunrise, don’t you genius??!!
Meanwhile your link has a wild guess as to when the picture was taken. Or perhaps some revisionist history from another warmist dumbass.
Funny to see how you dug your hole deeper before I made my last post. I’ll go with the detailed version in LIFE magazine from right after the voyage over your so called facts that were compiled years after the event.
And Paul Krugman is a huge dumbass!! What a joke!
Facts indeed, here’s “Graham P Davis”, who contributed the caption to your “fact based” link, speculating on when the picture was taken:
http://www.navalhistory.org/2011/08/11/uss-skate-ssn-578-becomes-the-first-submarine-to-surface-at-the-north-pole/
Note also that the story above his comment states incorrectly that the Skate reached the pole in 1958. So, again, I think it’s wise to go with the LIFE magazine story that was published just a couple of months after the voyage rather than on speculation that apparently came more than 50 years later.
And here you have it:
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Uk/uk.sci.weather/2011-10/msg00888.html
Graham P Davis is a warmist dumbass!! And he’s the guy behind your “fact”.
And even he says on the link I provided: “Also, although I agree that the photograph is of the USS Skate, it is not known where or when that photo was taken.” But yet he later IDs the photo as in the summer.
Time for your retraction there Kev, buddy??
And in summary, Kevin’s quote of:
“If you’re getting information from people that are often wrong, then you’re getting your information from the wrong sources. ”
turns out to be quite apropos. Graham P Davis has no idea where or when the picture was taken, but yet he goes out onto the web to state that it was taken in the summer and asks for corrections on the photo, and “IDs” the photo, and then Kevin links to Graham’s “ID” of the photo that Graham actually has no idea where or when was taken. BWAH HA HA HA HA !!!! It’s almost too good to make up.
So, Kevin, don’t listen to anything else from Graham or you’ll just end up with more egg on your face.
The USS Skate surfaced at drift station Alpha on 11 August 1958.
The Commander of the Skate wrote a book, in the book he states they never encountered open water on the 1959 cruise until 4 days *after* they reached the North Pole. The open water they found was a two-foot diameter hole. At the time they were 100 miles from the New Siberian Islands.
Now, we also have the submarine tracks. The only likely possibility is the surfacing at drift station Alpha. Do you have any evidence otherwise? No.
Ranting and raving doesn’t change the facts: the photo here and all over the denialsphere is NOT the North Pole in March of 1959 – or anywhere near it. You admit it’s not the North Pole – but you have no problem with the misleading lie staying just as it is. Truth means nothing to you.
And apparently not to Steve either.
Kevin,
You are a moron. The US Navy used to have the picture captioned as being at the North Pole. They changed it. I don’t control the Navy and nobody really cares less about about this.
As usual, you focus on 5% and ignore the other 95%. Go take your OCD medication. It is pathetic.
Didn’t hear you complain about the Old Pulteney Row to the Pole O’Neill, so how’s the climate in Superior lately?
Am I supposed to be intimidated? Oooh, see I can check up on you, I know where you live, you better watch what you say.
Pretty pathetic.
Dipshit. I haven’t lived in Superior in 30 years – ever since I enlisted in the Army. I live in southern Wisconsin.
Calvert’s book was published in 1996. The sub’s trip was in March and April of 1959, and the LIFE magazine article was from the May 4, 1959, so LIFE interviewed Calvert for the article almost immediately after it happened. And among the pictures supplied to LIFE is the one in question where it is clearly indicated that it was one of the 10 surfacings in the Arctic.
Even if your account of Calvert’s recollection from around 1995/96 is accurate, that still is not compelling enough to overcome the LIFE account from RIGHT AFTER THE DAMN VOYAGE HAPPENED!! And even if it turns out that an older picture was somehow mistakenly slipped in, and somehow someone from the Navy or someone at LIFE also mistakenly identified the picture as one of the 10 surfacings in the winter of 1959, and somehow no one caught the mistake in proofreading before publication, it still does not change the facts that:
1. Steve correctly first referred to the picture based on the Navy’s original identification of it.
2. Your were completely and unequivocally full of shit in saying that there was no sunlight available for the pictures.
3. Your supposed “factual” source for when and where the picture was taken was speculating (as are you), and his speculation is immediately called into question due to the fact that he is a WARMIST DUMBASS.
Yes, the Navy listed that photo as part of the March 1959 mission, for over 40 years. The military does not mix up photos in their top secret scrap books! This was not aunt Jean and her pool boy in Jamaica for their second honeymoon. This was an extremely important mission during the cold war to find ways to counter the Soviets.
The descriptions of that voyage speak of large areas of open water near the pole.
Winston Smith has been replaced at the Ministry of Truth.
Calvert’s book was FIRST printed by Hutchinson in 1961. It was reprinted several times, including 1996. Doh!
You are still Brainless and Clueless.
Actually Calvert described many openings in the ice, and how they would open and close with the winds…
“the Skate found open water both in the summer and following winter. We surfaced near the North Pole in the winter through thin ice less than 2 feet thick. The ice moves from Alaska to Iceland and the wind and tides causes open water as the ice breaks up. The Ice at the polar ice cap is an average of 6-8 feet thick, but with the wind and tides the ice will crack and open into large polynyas (areas of open water), these areas will refreeze over with thin ice. We had sonar equipment that would find these open or thin areas to come up through, thus limiting any damage to the submarine. The ice would also close in and cover these areas crushing together making large ice ridges both above and below the water. We came up through a very large opening in 1958 that was 1/2 mile long and 200 yards wide. The wind came up and closed the opening within 2 hours. On both trips we were able to find open water. We were not able to surface through ice thicker than 3 feet.”
But who really should care? Ice melts!
There is currently more ice today than the average of the past 9000 years. Quit being a ninny!
Gator, you are spot on!!! Polynya is Russian word – those openings in the ice are created by atmospheric air pressure, they are needed. Water to get some oxygen and release toxic gases from rotting / oxidizing gunk that ends up below delivered by the currents. Plus from dead critters on the bottom. Nature creates vents. Ice there is not thick as on the south poll, because Arctic ice is seating on salty water / currents
The way those ”fields” are created… well, you know the ”vertical winds” that people with hang-glider use? Those winds go up, from where the surface is warm / hot… Those same ”vertical winds” on the north poll go in a direction down. Warm air comes from south by the winds – instantly that air freezes > becomes very cold / heavy – drops – those large sheets of ice have big surface area / resistance (same as when you carry a sheet of corrugated iron against the wind. THAT WIND IS NOT ALWAYS exactly VERTICAL. Couple of degrees angle > brakes it, then piles one ice sheet on another > you get a 100m by a 1km opening on the opposite side of the ice sheet.
Those openings are used by the water, whales and the submarines, to get some air – there are 1000 of those openings right to the North Poll. Don’t presume that the water below the ice is completely calm. When winds from above are pushing the ice – those ice sheets become as a person on a water-bed > water does get rough below and helps in braking / piling up large sheets = on the opposite end, instant opening called polynya on Slav lingo
Are you people completely clueless. NavSourceOnline is *not* I repeat, is *not* part of the US Navy. It is *not* part of the DOD. It is *not* part of the US government.
NavSourceOnline is a group of volunteers.
The *Navy* didn’t change anything.
My god a 20 pound sledgehammer couldn’t get these simple facts into your heads.
No you are clueless, and a classic can’t see the forest for the twig person. This is a bullshit irrelevant discussion you fixate on because you can’t deal with any of the real issues surrounding global warming.
It is really starting to get pathetic.
Kevin:
The sun rises at the North Pole on Spring Equinox in March and set on Fall Equinox in September. During that period the sun will rise to about 23.5 degrees above the horizon and any additional elevation above the surface will increase the number of days of sunlight. There should be enough light to take pictures during the entire month of March. The furthest below the horizon the sun can get is 23.5 degrees at Winter Solstice in December. Dawn would be a number of days long.
Mike – what’s your point? We have the actual pictures from the Wilkins ceremony – the crewmen were given flares to light the way. Here’s what Commander Calvert himself said about reaching the pole: